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- A public service message: Amemet drops and gil sellers...
A public service message: Amemet drops and gil sellers...Follow
I played a small game for about 5 years and when people started selling items for cash the economy went completely haywire. There's a huge, huge gap now of the wealthiest 1% and everyone else.
The 'legality' arguement worries me somewhat. I've spoken to many people who are now declaring gill selling is against the law. Which is unfortunately simply not true.
What you are doing is violating a contract between yourself and Square Enix. The contract states that as long as you do or do not do specific things you are entitled to play the game. If you break them SE is entitled to kick your butt out. Now while you CAN drag contract law into this and make it seem like a whole federal case that needs the Supreme Court to step in, the reality is far different.
What's more, it strikes right back at the heart of the matter. It is SE and SE alone who have any right/obligation to exercise punishments.
According to the same EULA the above actions listed would
Obviously Square isn't exercising its right and that means there is zip to be done sadly.
To many people throwing around the "illegal" word and you get people honestly believing they can go to their local DA and file some charges or something. THat's not the case.
What you are doing is violating a contract between yourself and Square Enix. The contract states that as long as you do or do not do specific things you are entitled to play the game. If you break them SE is entitled to kick your butt out. Now while you CAN drag contract law into this and make it seem like a whole federal case that needs the Supreme Court to step in, the reality is far different.
What's more, it strikes right back at the heart of the matter. It is SE and SE alone who have any right/obligation to exercise punishments.
According to the same EULA the above actions listed would
Quote:
be cause for immediate termination of your PlayOnline account and your right to play the Game (or any other services) in connection therewith
Obviously Square isn't exercising its right and that means there is zip to be done sadly.
To many people throwing around the "illegal" word and you get people honestly believing they can go to their local DA and file some charges or something. THat's not the case.
Good, some decent responses from some people, This will be a long post, but I hope readers find it worth while.
Toonfinder: Yes, I agree with what you have said. I have thought of my own reasons why it is wrong, and this was one of the two I came up with. And this is the ONLY reason that has any fact or proof behind it. SE says directly, for the most part, that gil selling violates the user agreement. Therefore those who sell gil are in violation, and are prone to punishment that SE would see fit. The main answer this gives us though would be along these lines: Is gil selling wrong? Don't know. But it is in violation of the user agreement, and those who sell gil are breaking the rules, AKA cheating in some way. However, this does not mean in anyway gil selling is legally wrong (Airama, good point), or more importantly, morally wrong.
Cydille: This will take even more writing. To you first point (1), I adressesd this in the above statement. I will have to agree.
The second point made by you and Trychocyst (2): Economy.
Now you are answering that Gil selling is wrong, because it harms the economy, but here is what you have stated:
(2) Economics. This was also covered by another poster. The repeated camping/farming of a NM creates a situation in which the price of an item is arbitrarily raised above equilibrium, to the benefit of a few producers and the detriment of the consumer. One can see this situation in the current Amemet prices. The Axis of Evil drives the price down, effectively shutting out all other competitors, and then subsequently set an exorbitant price on Amemet skins. Also, the mass farming for pure gil (thankfully less prevalant in FFXI, but still existing) introduces more currency into the market than is going out of circulation (via purchases from vendors, etc.), which causes inflation.
This is well written, however reading what you wrote, you are saying the economy is harmed by "the repeated camping/farming of a NM" which "creates a situtation in which the price of an item is arbitrarily raised above equalibrium..." In your own words you are saying constant farming of a NM forming a monopoly is harming the economy, NOT gil selling!! Anyone playing this game could camp/farm a NM and create a monopoly, gil sellers and non-gil sellers alike. This statement is great evidence why people shouldn't camp a NM, morally, but means nothing to the agrument of gil sellers.
If you or anyone else still wants to argue that it harms the economy, please gil me evidence where gil selling, NOT FARMING, directly harms the FF economy.
Point number 2 is therefore invalid.
Your third point (3) is the other agurment I have thought that makes gil selling wrong. It creates an environment that promotes hostility and beligerance! This is obvious as many people "hate" gil sellers, and yet they can NOT give a single reason why its wrong, to the exclusion of the 2 names above.
The third point is well taken, and provides support that gil selling is wrong, at least morally. However, there are no rules that people have to play nice, and promote friendly conditions. And gil selling alone is not the culprit to in game hostilities and harasment. Although this is a arguement opposed to gil selling, it is weak, and could be extended to many other issues.
Point four (4): Gil selling creates unfair gameplay. This argument I believe is completely invalid! You are saying it is only right for a person to obtain in-game gil through hours of hard work, and no other means. Would you consider someone giving you money unfair? By the same logic, this is also "cheating," since you did not earn the gil yourself, but took it. But we all know people who got free goods when a friend has left the game. No one calls them a cheater! And if one did, they would be considered rediculous.
If someone is paying real life money for in game gil, rather than spend hours in FF, they compensated it with hours of real life work. This is more a question of wealth, and the greatest economic ideal, the most a person can benefit. If gil selling creates unfairness, show me how. You, like anyone could buy gil, so how is this unfair. This argument has nothing to do with fairness, but personal choice on how to achieve something. Maybe some people need more "out of the box" thinking.
Conclusion: So far we can adress gil selling as being wrong for 1 reasons. (1) It violates the SE user agreement!
I still do not understand why people feel they are being so violated by gil sellers. So far no one has created a decent argument why gil selling is ethically/morally wrong! I am still urging people to see the truth, that there is no evil in it.
Monopolies on NMs are wrong! NM bots are wrong! But these issues are separate from gil selling.
Feel free to bring up more points why gil selling is wrong!
Also, I am not gil selling, or personally know anyone who is. I would just like to hear people have a good REASON to why they dislike something, instead of just *********
Edited, Thu Oct 14 03:19:14 2004 by HeavenlyFather
Edited, Thu Oct 14 03:21:11 2004 by HeavenlyFather
Toonfinder: Yes, I agree with what you have said. I have thought of my own reasons why it is wrong, and this was one of the two I came up with. And this is the ONLY reason that has any fact or proof behind it. SE says directly, for the most part, that gil selling violates the user agreement. Therefore those who sell gil are in violation, and are prone to punishment that SE would see fit. The main answer this gives us though would be along these lines: Is gil selling wrong? Don't know. But it is in violation of the user agreement, and those who sell gil are breaking the rules, AKA cheating in some way. However, this does not mean in anyway gil selling is legally wrong (Airama, good point), or more importantly, morally wrong.
Cydille: This will take even more writing. To you first point (1), I adressesd this in the above statement. I will have to agree.
The second point made by you and Trychocyst (2): Economy.
Now you are answering that Gil selling is wrong, because it harms the economy, but here is what you have stated:
(2) Economics. This was also covered by another poster. The repeated camping/farming of a NM creates a situation in which the price of an item is arbitrarily raised above equilibrium, to the benefit of a few producers and the detriment of the consumer. One can see this situation in the current Amemet prices. The Axis of Evil drives the price down, effectively shutting out all other competitors, and then subsequently set an exorbitant price on Amemet skins. Also, the mass farming for pure gil (thankfully less prevalant in FFXI, but still existing) introduces more currency into the market than is going out of circulation (via purchases from vendors, etc.), which causes inflation.
This is well written, however reading what you wrote, you are saying the economy is harmed by "the repeated camping/farming of a NM" which "creates a situtation in which the price of an item is arbitrarily raised above equalibrium..." In your own words you are saying constant farming of a NM forming a monopoly is harming the economy, NOT gil selling!! Anyone playing this game could camp/farm a NM and create a monopoly, gil sellers and non-gil sellers alike. This statement is great evidence why people shouldn't camp a NM, morally, but means nothing to the agrument of gil sellers.
If you or anyone else still wants to argue that it harms the economy, please gil me evidence where gil selling, NOT FARMING, directly harms the FF economy.
Point number 2 is therefore invalid.
Your third point (3) is the other agurment I have thought that makes gil selling wrong. It creates an environment that promotes hostility and beligerance! This is obvious as many people "hate" gil sellers, and yet they can NOT give a single reason why its wrong, to the exclusion of the 2 names above.
The third point is well taken, and provides support that gil selling is wrong, at least morally. However, there are no rules that people have to play nice, and promote friendly conditions. And gil selling alone is not the culprit to in game hostilities and harasment. Although this is a arguement opposed to gil selling, it is weak, and could be extended to many other issues.
Point four (4): Gil selling creates unfair gameplay. This argument I believe is completely invalid! You are saying it is only right for a person to obtain in-game gil through hours of hard work, and no other means. Would you consider someone giving you money unfair? By the same logic, this is also "cheating," since you did not earn the gil yourself, but took it. But we all know people who got free goods when a friend has left the game. No one calls them a cheater! And if one did, they would be considered rediculous.
If someone is paying real life money for in game gil, rather than spend hours in FF, they compensated it with hours of real life work. This is more a question of wealth, and the greatest economic ideal, the most a person can benefit. If gil selling creates unfairness, show me how. You, like anyone could buy gil, so how is this unfair. This argument has nothing to do with fairness, but personal choice on how to achieve something. Maybe some people need more "out of the box" thinking.
Conclusion: So far we can adress gil selling as being wrong for 1 reasons. (1) It violates the SE user agreement!
I still do not understand why people feel they are being so violated by gil sellers. So far no one has created a decent argument why gil selling is ethically/morally wrong! I am still urging people to see the truth, that there is no evil in it.
Monopolies on NMs are wrong! NM bots are wrong! But these issues are separate from gil selling.
Feel free to bring up more points why gil selling is wrong!
Also, I am not gil selling, or personally know anyone who is. I would just like to hear people have a good REASON to why they dislike something, instead of just *********
Edited, Thu Oct 14 03:19:14 2004 by HeavenlyFather
Edited, Thu Oct 14 03:21:11 2004 by HeavenlyFather
Ok, here's another reason I don't like gil selling:
I have a friend who was a good, hard working and sensible guy who bought around 2 million gil just as he got level 30 the first time. Soon after the hard working, sensible, guy became captain jerkhat. Just because he didn't have to work for the gil like everyone else, he gained this huge superiority complex.
Now, it's his perogative to be buying gil, but I liked him much better in his humble days.
I'd also like to say I never said farming or NM camping ruined the economy, but this is a game. Earn your keep. It's obviously possible. What sort of teenager/young adult should be spending so much money on a game anyway? Am I missing the general demographic of the players (they certainly don't act age appropriate if I am).
Just my two cents.
Edited, Thu Oct 14 08:57:35 2004 by Trichocyst
I have a friend who was a good, hard working and sensible guy who bought around 2 million gil just as he got level 30 the first time. Soon after the hard working, sensible, guy became captain jerkhat. Just because he didn't have to work for the gil like everyone else, he gained this huge superiority complex.
Now, it's his perogative to be buying gil, but I liked him much better in his humble days.
I'd also like to say I never said farming or NM camping ruined the economy, but this is a game. Earn your keep. It's obviously possible. What sort of teenager/young adult should be spending so much money on a game anyway? Am I missing the general demographic of the players (they certainly don't act age appropriate if I am).
Just my two cents.
Edited, Thu Oct 14 08:57:35 2004 by Trichocyst
If Gil sellers didn't use the tactics that they used, no one would care that they were doing it.
Sure, Gil selling is against user agreement, but so is MPKing, and players do that often without remorse, [spelling?] and often get praised for it.. So yes, heavenlymother has a point where the actual act of selling gil isn't as "evil" as you thought.
It's the simple fact that nearly all the known gil sellers employ these horrible twisted, cut-throat tactics in order to attain their gil.
MPKing is one thing..
there's also the unheard of theft of mining points.
Fish botting.
bum-rushing logging points to drive competition away.
theft of claims
calling for help on NMs they lose the pull on.
So the act of selling gil isn't the problem, [though yes, it is wrong, but it doesn't effect anyone directly] it's how they attain it that is. I'm not exactly sure how to solve this, other than trying to make it unprofitable for them to sell the gil, which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Sure, Gil selling is against user agreement, but so is MPKing, and players do that often without remorse, [spelling?] and often get praised for it.. So yes, heavenlymother has a point where the actual act of selling gil isn't as "evil" as you thought.
It's the simple fact that nearly all the known gil sellers employ these horrible twisted, cut-throat tactics in order to attain their gil.
MPKing is one thing..
there's also the unheard of theft of mining points.
Fish botting.
bum-rushing logging points to drive competition away.
theft of claims
calling for help on NMs they lose the pull on.
So the act of selling gil isn't the problem, [though yes, it is wrong, but it doesn't effect anyone directly] it's how they attain it that is. I'm not exactly sure how to solve this, other than trying to make it unprofitable for them to sell the gil, which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Trichocyst: I'm sorry your friend has developed an ego over his new found power in buying gil.
Lenwei: Thank you for seeing my point. Gil selling is not evil. But I do agre the vast majority of gil sellers are ruining the quality of our game. Gil sellers that try to lvl enter a PT with poor equipment. Gil sellers do use cut-throat tactics to achieve their quotas.
I personally am not a fan of gil sellers, and try to limit any exchange with them. However it is important to remember that they too are people. It is perfectly right to disagree with them, and their practices, but it is wrong to resort to name calling, and refering to them as simply evil just because we do not like them.
Thank you to those who were willing to participate in a written debate with me. I am now considering the issue satisfied.
Good luck to you all.
Lenwei: Thank you for seeing my point. Gil selling is not evil. But I do agre the vast majority of gil sellers are ruining the quality of our game. Gil sellers that try to lvl enter a PT with poor equipment. Gil sellers do use cut-throat tactics to achieve their quotas.
I personally am not a fan of gil sellers, and try to limit any exchange with them. However it is important to remember that they too are people. It is perfectly right to disagree with them, and their practices, but it is wrong to resort to name calling, and refering to them as simply evil just because we do not like them.
Thank you to those who were willing to participate in a written debate with me. I am now considering the issue satisfied.
Good luck to you all.
Quote:
If Gil sellers didn't use the tactics that they used, no one would care that they were doing it.
Finally a statement I can get fully behind. I would have to agree it's the tactics employeed and not whatever they choose to do with their capital gains that is the real issue here.
Oh and as for the economic comments above...welcome to a free market economy that has no form of regulation on it. Supply and demand... a demand is there and those with the supply will sell it for whatever amount the market will support. Given the fact that there are almost always a dozen or so hairpins inthe AH at any one time and people STILL pay 200-300K each for them, that means the buyers have decided its a reasonable price.
Sorry but in the FFXI EULA or other documentations I dont ever recall seeing anything about a Monopoly being a violation, against the rules, or a bannable offense.
The reason SE cant shutdown such companies like IGE is because its in a country where these laws have no validity. Unless they can find a way around that, I cant see it ever getting any better D:
Edited, Thu Oct 14 16:29:38 2004 by Eoyote
Edited, Thu Oct 14 16:29:38 2004 by Eoyote
About the most they can do is cancel out the accounts of these people, but we all know they would just get a new one and start again. It's kind of a losing battle from SE's end as well.
From what I can tell it's a neverending cycle. I'll take a stab at the reasons people buy gil. They have to have the best character possible and are 1) Too lazy to farm 2) Don't play much and don't want to spend the little time they do have to play farming. Thats all I can think of. While the people in reason #2 may not being doing it to have the best gear they may be doing it to just have gear so they can play the small bit of time they have to play.
However the problem is that the gil sellers now seem to be taking over the nm's. Which will lead to anyone who wants the drops having to buy them from these people. And that can lead to those people buying gil to be able to pay the new inflated prices. Which will in turn keep the gil sellers around. The higher level they get the more screwed up things are going to get as they can camp harder and harder things.
And as said, if they didn't act the way they did I imagine I would have less of a problem with them. But when you start mpking people who won a pull, then theres just something wrong. But if they keep doing that then they will get baned, and will have to get new acounts and if that keeps on going on they might eventually give up. Or at least one can only hope.
However the problem is that the gil sellers now seem to be taking over the nm's. Which will lead to anyone who wants the drops having to buy them from these people. And that can lead to those people buying gil to be able to pay the new inflated prices. Which will in turn keep the gil sellers around. The higher level they get the more screwed up things are going to get as they can camp harder and harder things.
And as said, if they didn't act the way they did I imagine I would have less of a problem with them. But when you start mpking people who won a pull, then theres just something wrong. But if they keep doing that then they will get baned, and will have to get new acounts and if that keeps on going on they might eventually give up. Or at least one can only hope.
The big issue is this: People are eventually going to be FORCED to buy gil because of the ever growing population of the gil sellers..
Not only do they employ these terrible tactics to attain their items, but they're encroaching on every last farming spot on the server. Recently my spot in Beaucedine has been in direct competition with a group of gil sellers, who enjoy casting dia or provoking every last tiger in the zone, just so I cannot get to them.
It's a fact that there's getting to be way WAY too many of them, and it's making anyone who has no crafts leveled impossible to earn their way.
Not only do they employ these terrible tactics to attain their items, but they're encroaching on every last farming spot on the server. Recently my spot in Beaucedine has been in direct competition with a group of gil sellers, who enjoy casting dia or provoking every last tiger in the zone, just so I cannot get to them.
It's a fact that there's getting to be way WAY too many of them, and it's making anyone who has no crafts leveled impossible to earn their way.
There are 3 reasons that I don't support gil sellers.
1. It's against the TOS.
2. I don't like their methods.
3. Everyone will eventually be forced to buy gil or not play at all. The amount of gil sellers will just keep increasing unless we stop them. Farming for gil is their job. They don't play this game for fun (although some of them might enjoy MPKing people). Eventually there will be so many gil sellers that there is no place for anyone who isn't one to farm. It isn't possible for a gamer to be as dedicated to farming as someone who does it for a living. While people can still farm, they won't be able to farm as much as these gil sellers. And these gil sellers are going to raise prices on the items that they sell in order to get more gil. The prices will get so high that unless players buy gil, we will not be able to afford them. We just cannot farm as much as a gil seller.
For those reasons I don't like gil farmers. However, I can't really hate them. They're doing this as their job. Their livelihoods depend on their gil selling. While I do enjoy this game and would hate for it to be ruined, I don't think that my enjoyment should be put over the welfare of people that can only support themselves through gil selling.
1. It's against the TOS.
2. I don't like their methods.
3. Everyone will eventually be forced to buy gil or not play at all. The amount of gil sellers will just keep increasing unless we stop them. Farming for gil is their job. They don't play this game for fun (although some of them might enjoy MPKing people). Eventually there will be so many gil sellers that there is no place for anyone who isn't one to farm. It isn't possible for a gamer to be as dedicated to farming as someone who does it for a living. While people can still farm, they won't be able to farm as much as these gil sellers. And these gil sellers are going to raise prices on the items that they sell in order to get more gil. The prices will get so high that unless players buy gil, we will not be able to afford them. We just cannot farm as much as a gil seller.
For those reasons I don't like gil farmers. However, I can't really hate them. They're doing this as their job. Their livelihoods depend on their gil selling. While I do enjoy this game and would hate for it to be ruined, I don't think that my enjoyment should be put over the welfare of people that can only support themselves through gil selling.
Well the reason I don't like people like the gil sellers of logitech's crew is based simply that they DO effect my gameplay. When they farmed in delkfutt's tower and came up as a 6 deep crew and cleared the ENTIRE floor along with the 3 or 4 gil sellers on the 7-9th floors, I basically was losing farming time because I'd have to move to either the lower half of the floor or head to another farming area.
I don't really care if a person buy/sells/trades gil for money but when it can directly effect my farming for things I need then I tend to take it seriously. And don't give me the **** of how legit farmers can also ***** up my farming. Legit farmers also tend to have manners when it comes to more than one person farming in an area and will often let you take claim of a mob if you were there first, but if I go to attack a magic urn on floor 10 and logitech jumps the mob to gain aggro and more than one portion of his group claim 2+ mobs at any given time then I am getting a short end of the leash on the farming. I'd also feel the same way if the person wasn't a gil seller but just an *** hole about mass claiming mobs or HELM point stealers.
Gil sellers are easier to point out of the group because their function of the game isn't to get the best gear possible and play the story, their role is to farm for other people who can't or won't and sell what they can. I'm getting rather tired of constantly reading topics about gil sellers, bots, and other crap that basically drags this game through the dirt. As long as S-E is getting their payments from the gil sellers, and other players haev to farm for longer amounts of time thus paying for longer subscriptions, then I have little faith that they'll fix the problem. Once they notice that the gil sellers are dipping into S-E's pockets with the lossed accounts they MIGHT fix it but I wouldn't put much hope into it.
I don't really care if a person buy/sells/trades gil for money but when it can directly effect my farming for things I need then I tend to take it seriously. And don't give me the **** of how legit farmers can also ***** up my farming. Legit farmers also tend to have manners when it comes to more than one person farming in an area and will often let you take claim of a mob if you were there first, but if I go to attack a magic urn on floor 10 and logitech jumps the mob to gain aggro and more than one portion of his group claim 2+ mobs at any given time then I am getting a short end of the leash on the farming. I'd also feel the same way if the person wasn't a gil seller but just an *** hole about mass claiming mobs or HELM point stealers.
Gil sellers are easier to point out of the group because their function of the game isn't to get the best gear possible and play the story, their role is to farm for other people who can't or won't and sell what they can. I'm getting rather tired of constantly reading topics about gil sellers, bots, and other crap that basically drags this game through the dirt. As long as S-E is getting their payments from the gil sellers, and other players haev to farm for longer amounts of time thus paying for longer subscriptions, then I have little faith that they'll fix the problem. Once they notice that the gil sellers are dipping into S-E's pockets with the lossed accounts they MIGHT fix it but I wouldn't put much hope into it.
Scholar
20 posts
Gil selling is wrong and morales don't matter at all. It doesn't matter in the slightest if you think it is morally wrong or the clause should be removed at all. To play the game is OPTIONAL and as such you have no say in the rules because you don't have to play. If i made a game and the only rule in my ELUA was that everyone will give me everything they own and die upon command it wouldn't matter whether or not you thought that was morally wrong. I most likely wouldn't have a lot of business but the fact remains that anyone who didn't give me everything they owned and died upon my very whim would be breaking my EULA and subject to punishment. My game was not suppressed on you without your concensus and by playin on FFXI you agree to ALL clauses whether you like it or not. Therefore if you think that the rule is morally wrong and you should be able to sell gil voice your opinion, don't play.
Well here is some hope to the issue for those rooting for the destruction of gil sellers. There is a limit to what gil sellers can actually make. If all of us threw our arms up in the air, and said ***** it, and sold our gil to IGE or one of the other companies, there would be a huge supply of gil. There would be even more gil than buyers of gil, which would dramatically reduce the price. The price reduction in turn would mean gil sellers get paid less, a lot less. They then would actually have something better to do in rl to make money than by playing this game.
No duh this isn't going to happen. But I want to bring up the point, as long as there more more gil sellers, and less gil buyers, the actual profit from selling gil will decrease, which will decrease the number of people who sell gil.
This could be achieved by boy cotting (sp?) IGE (obviously people who buy care do not think of this as an issue), or if you must buy gil, by it direct from a player, or a company that is cheaper than IGE to overall reduce the price of gil.
I know this is a rant, but its late and im tired, so its the best i can do on the issue at the moment. But gil sellers will not be forcing anyone to hav to buy any gil. They will all be long put out of business before they force players into buying. Point is, even gil selling will reach an equalibrium.
Anyone know how i can sell my gil? =p
Edited, Fri Oct 15 14:34:53 2004 by HeavenlyFather
No duh this isn't going to happen. But I want to bring up the point, as long as there more more gil sellers, and less gil buyers, the actual profit from selling gil will decrease, which will decrease the number of people who sell gil.
This could be achieved by boy cotting (sp?) IGE (obviously people who buy care do not think of this as an issue), or if you must buy gil, by it direct from a player, or a company that is cheaper than IGE to overall reduce the price of gil.
I know this is a rant, but its late and im tired, so its the best i can do on the issue at the moment. But gil sellers will not be forcing anyone to hav to buy any gil. They will all be long put out of business before they force players into buying. Point is, even gil selling will reach an equalibrium.
Anyone know how i can sell my gil? =p
Edited, Fri Oct 15 14:34:53 2004 by HeavenlyFather
Father I think you mean IGE..IGN is an entirely differnt site lol
Bard brought up something i've just been to lazy to post or express. Its a circle and it's going to keep going around and around.
I liked the quickie economic lesson above about flooding the gil selling market, in fact the price per 1,000,000 gil dropped $5 on Ragnarok in the past 24 hours and we are no longer considered a "top paying" server.
Don't get too excited, that decline has NOTHING to do with our efforts to thwart the sellers. In fact its excatly the opposite. There was TOO MUCH gil sold, which drove the price down. In point of fact, if we were to succeed and drive sellers from the server, it would only drive the price IGE paid for gil UP on Ragnarok, meaning we'd get more people coming in to sell gil, and then it would drop again. Look at the world markets for currency or any other 'futures' market and you'll see this is no different. Supply fears drive prices UP not down.
I agree with Slick, its in the EULA and therefore moral,legal, or whismy of the moment issue mean nothing. Those are the terms you agreed to, there they are, deal. Of course if no one enforces those rules then hey, do whatever.
The problem I have with the whole 'Its in the EULA!!!!' argument is a very very simple one. If that's your whole argument, and its the justification for your entire argument, and the entire reason for some people going off the fanatical end of the world then I am about to turn a very large number of you into total and utter Hypocrites.
For those that aren't aware....
All of you so opposed to violating the FFXI EULA.. I have a simple question. I suspect many will not answer and some will lie and perhaps even others may answer honestly, but here it is.
Have you ever...
'Borrowed' someone's install CD for a program you wanted but couldn't afford?
Downloaded music (or movie, software, whatever) off the internet using a file sharing service other than a pay service?
Installed a single purchased copy of software on more than one PC in your home?
'Forgotten' to delete that shareware program after 30 days of trial and continued to use it?
Sold your old PC with a copy of something you 'forgot' to uninstall but you kept the CD for?
Copied a song from or an entire CD for a friend who didnt own the CD or Movie?
Duped, or viewed a duped videotape or DVD of a motion picture?
If you haven't then please forward your name to the Vatican, I hear they are looking for more saints. If you have, then you need to get down off that "it's against the EULA" horse and put away your little tinfoil sword and go home because you're a hypocrite.
If your answer is about to be 'Well yes, but at the time I didn't know' well then the question becomes "do you still have any of the above".
Also, it goes right to another point.. how many people here actually READ the EULA of everything the install or own? I'm willing to be it's an incredibly small number.
Bard brought up something i've just been to lazy to post or express. Its a circle and it's going to keep going around and around.
I liked the quickie economic lesson above about flooding the gil selling market, in fact the price per 1,000,000 gil dropped $5 on Ragnarok in the past 24 hours and we are no longer considered a "top paying" server.
Don't get too excited, that decline has NOTHING to do with our efforts to thwart the sellers. In fact its excatly the opposite. There was TOO MUCH gil sold, which drove the price down. In point of fact, if we were to succeed and drive sellers from the server, it would only drive the price IGE paid for gil UP on Ragnarok, meaning we'd get more people coming in to sell gil, and then it would drop again. Look at the world markets for currency or any other 'futures' market and you'll see this is no different. Supply fears drive prices UP not down.
I agree with Slick, its in the EULA and therefore moral,legal, or whismy of the moment issue mean nothing. Those are the terms you agreed to, there they are, deal. Of course if no one enforces those rules then hey, do whatever.
The problem I have with the whole 'Its in the EULA!!!!' argument is a very very simple one. If that's your whole argument, and its the justification for your entire argument, and the entire reason for some people going off the fanatical end of the world then I am about to turn a very large number of you into total and utter Hypocrites.
For those that aren't aware....
Quote:
Hypocrite : One who plays a part; especially, one who, for the purpose of winning approbation of favor, puts on a fair outside seeming; one who feigns to be other and better than he is; a false pretender to virtue or piety; one who simulates virtue or piety.
All of you so opposed to violating the FFXI EULA.. I have a simple question. I suspect many will not answer and some will lie and perhaps even others may answer honestly, but here it is.
Have you ever...
'Borrowed' someone's install CD for a program you wanted but couldn't afford?
Downloaded music (or movie, software, whatever) off the internet using a file sharing service other than a pay service?
Installed a single purchased copy of software on more than one PC in your home?
'Forgotten' to delete that shareware program after 30 days of trial and continued to use it?
Sold your old PC with a copy of something you 'forgot' to uninstall but you kept the CD for?
Copied a song from or an entire CD for a friend who didnt own the CD or Movie?
Duped, or viewed a duped videotape or DVD of a motion picture?
If you haven't then please forward your name to the Vatican, I hear they are looking for more saints. If you have, then you need to get down off that "it's against the EULA" horse and put away your little tinfoil sword and go home because you're a hypocrite.
If your answer is about to be 'Well yes, but at the time I didn't know' well then the question becomes "do you still have any of the above".
Also, it goes right to another point.. how many people here actually READ the EULA of everything the install or own? I'm willing to be it's an incredibly small number.
air I can say I haven't in years. After being on the other side of that whole thing and having work I did stolen from me, I really changed my views on it's not hurting anyone.
But I guess that only goes to make your point even stronger. Nobody really cares about these agreements being broken until it starts effecting them adversely.
But I guess that only goes to make your point even stronger. Nobody really cares about these agreements being broken until it starts effecting them adversely.
I'm gunna make me a tinfoil sword now! As for downloading stuff. I'll download a movie or anime series or whatever and see if I like it, if I do, I buy it. If not I delete it.
/em goes and makes a tinfoil sword
/em goes and makes a tinfoil sword
Quote:
But I guess that only goes to make your point even stronger. Nobody really cares about these agreements being broken until it starts effecting them adversely.
Tiffie that's exactly my point. Its why when the whole "legal" and "moral" objections started flying all over the place (not so much here but in other places) I lost a lot of respect for most people's arguments. Especially on this topic because in the end here we're talking about "entertainment". We're also talking about something that isn't causing the cost of anything in your real life to go up. Movie, Music, and Software piracy all DO cause that to some greater or lessor extent.
In the final and honest analysis, Gil sellers are an annoyance, perhaps even less than that, in a purely optional activity.
Airamis: Thank you for clarifying the company, when I said ING, I meant IGE, of course.
I think you were trying to rebut my prediction of the future, but then you went to agree with it. My overall point was that gil selling would reach a continuing equalibrium. This is not to say it would go away, but to say for those that were preaching the doom of FF 11, that is ludacrous! The game will go one with no harm.
Airamas, I understand where you are comming from. You seem to preach practicallity over morallity. I understand this, for I am not one who is big on morals myself. This is NOT to say I do not live a moral life, but rather I feel that morals are not clearly defined in our everyday life, and thus to use them as any form of certitude seems in itself immoral. However, with this said, I believe it cannnot be neglected.
A vast majority of players are upset to some degree over the tactics of gil sellers. Doesn't this warrant that the issue be taken seriously, and that a possible solution is proposed? Most people could care less about the act of selling gil for whatever reason. However im sure most people personally, or know someone who personally was treated poorly by a gil seller. Due to gil seller's (perhaps chinese gil seller's) rude, impudent gameplay, many players have been inraged, and screwed. I remember how pissed I Was to find out Ghelsbah was full of a bunch of lvl 7's chopping wood, who would take a spot you were at, and didnt even have the proper gear!!!
I know it is easy to scoff morals. However, it is obvious that the practices gil sellers are using is diminishing the quality of gameplay, and that is where the majority of the complaints are stimming from.
Edited, Fri Oct 15 15:02:29 2004 by HeavenlyFather
I think you were trying to rebut my prediction of the future, but then you went to agree with it. My overall point was that gil selling would reach a continuing equalibrium. This is not to say it would go away, but to say for those that were preaching the doom of FF 11, that is ludacrous! The game will go one with no harm.
Airamas, I understand where you are comming from. You seem to preach practicallity over morallity. I understand this, for I am not one who is big on morals myself. This is NOT to say I do not live a moral life, but rather I feel that morals are not clearly defined in our everyday life, and thus to use them as any form of certitude seems in itself immoral. However, with this said, I believe it cannnot be neglected.
A vast majority of players are upset to some degree over the tactics of gil sellers. Doesn't this warrant that the issue be taken seriously, and that a possible solution is proposed? Most people could care less about the act of selling gil for whatever reason. However im sure most people personally, or know someone who personally was treated poorly by a gil seller. Due to gil seller's (perhaps chinese gil seller's) rude, impudent gameplay, many players have been inraged, and screwed. I remember how pissed I Was to find out Ghelsbah was full of a bunch of lvl 7's chopping wood, who would take a spot you were at, and didnt even have the proper gear!!!
I know it is easy to scoff morals. However, it is obvious that the practices gil sellers are using is diminishing the quality of gameplay, and that is where the majority of the complaints are stimming from.
Edited, Fri Oct 15 15:02:29 2004 by HeavenlyFather
I think it's safe to assume that almost everyone is not happy with some their tactics, whether they care about the actual selling of gil or not.
The problem is, as long as these people are getting paid real money for this, they are going to continue to be aggresive. Because this isn't a matter of them getting the next item they want for their job, but real life stuff.
The other night, I had some luck running into nm's and getting drops when I killed them. Later that night, I went to help 2 friends get their af1. One was a whm. While waiting for the party to meet on the beach and waiting for nightfall, I figured I'd go see about Goldbat since I had been having such great luck that day. Besides, I was bored, and I thought it'd be fun just to let Carby beat up on the bats so I could practice more skill chains with him. During this, I noticed someone standing there and I asked them if they were waiting for the spawn. After finding out they had been waiting, I told him if I saw the nm I'd let him know and not kill it but I was going to continue to kill the others. I also asked my party to not take the nm if it spawned and they were good with passing.
Now granted, we all would have loved to have that drop and split the gil. But at the same time, we were there for a different purpose, not camping this thing like the other guy had been. All we would have gotten out of stealing this spawn from the guy is some gil and probably a few mean words. But if I knew my livelyhood depended on me swiping that spawn, I think maybe I'd be a little less aggressive and use the are you camping it technique to know how quickly I might have to jump on it.
But let's face it, gil sellers aren't the only ones rude or over competitive about this stuff. You hear stories of every day players swiping spawns. Heck, RSE stuff gets overly competitive as well as other rare drops like the Carby Ruby.
It's human nature to try to win and be the best, and many people take it over board. It'd be nice if the gil sellers weren't that aggressive, but when you are dealing with every day players doing the same thing, even getting rid of the gil sellers isn't going to solve the problem of greedy players.
But still, I try to remember that it's just a game. Paying real money for in game money makes no sense to me. I do see how it can hinder other player's fun at it's peaks. And I'm not going to support it. Heck, I don't even really like it, but I also know that there isn't much that can be done to stop it. The best thing to do is try to make the game as enjoyable for the every day players by not being so overly competitive and even a little more helpful. Maybe if we work together a little more we won't notice what the other group is doing nearly as much. Bah, I'm done rambling, since half of that probably made no sense.
The problem is, as long as these people are getting paid real money for this, they are going to continue to be aggresive. Because this isn't a matter of them getting the next item they want for their job, but real life stuff.
The other night, I had some luck running into nm's and getting drops when I killed them. Later that night, I went to help 2 friends get their af1. One was a whm. While waiting for the party to meet on the beach and waiting for nightfall, I figured I'd go see about Goldbat since I had been having such great luck that day. Besides, I was bored, and I thought it'd be fun just to let Carby beat up on the bats so I could practice more skill chains with him. During this, I noticed someone standing there and I asked them if they were waiting for the spawn. After finding out they had been waiting, I told him if I saw the nm I'd let him know and not kill it but I was going to continue to kill the others. I also asked my party to not take the nm if it spawned and they were good with passing.
Now granted, we all would have loved to have that drop and split the gil. But at the same time, we were there for a different purpose, not camping this thing like the other guy had been. All we would have gotten out of stealing this spawn from the guy is some gil and probably a few mean words. But if I knew my livelyhood depended on me swiping that spawn, I think maybe I'd be a little less aggressive and use the are you camping it technique to know how quickly I might have to jump on it.
But let's face it, gil sellers aren't the only ones rude or over competitive about this stuff. You hear stories of every day players swiping spawns. Heck, RSE stuff gets overly competitive as well as other rare drops like the Carby Ruby.
It's human nature to try to win and be the best, and many people take it over board. It'd be nice if the gil sellers weren't that aggressive, but when you are dealing with every day players doing the same thing, even getting rid of the gil sellers isn't going to solve the problem of greedy players.
But still, I try to remember that it's just a game. Paying real money for in game money makes no sense to me. I do see how it can hinder other player's fun at it's peaks. And I'm not going to support it. Heck, I don't even really like it, but I also know that there isn't much that can be done to stop it. The best thing to do is try to make the game as enjoyable for the every day players by not being so overly competitive and even a little more helpful. Maybe if we work together a little more we won't notice what the other group is doing nearly as much. Bah, I'm done rambling, since half of that probably made no sense.
Tiffie, that was a good way of summing things up for us.
Each individual is judged by other individuals on the actions that they take. People can do whatever they want, but there is a good and bad way to do things. I personally try to be a nice helpful person, in real life, and in the game. Obviously not everyone is like that, and there is no reason people have to be that way, or any other manner of their choosing.
The Chinese gil sellers have been rude people, and as a result, not many people like them. Im sure they have figured out not too many people are happy with them, but if you compare the economy of China to that of the US, I would glady be a ruthless cutthroat gil seller to make a little wealth. But this is not without consequnce.
Each individual is judged by other individuals on the actions that they take. People can do whatever they want, but there is a good and bad way to do things. I personally try to be a nice helpful person, in real life, and in the game. Obviously not everyone is like that, and there is no reason people have to be that way, or any other manner of their choosing.
The Chinese gil sellers have been rude people, and as a result, not many people like them. Im sure they have figured out not too many people are happy with them, but if you compare the economy of China to that of the US, I would glady be a ruthless cutthroat gil seller to make a little wealth. But this is not without consequnce.
So can we safely say that th eonly problem with gilsellers is their tendency to use asshat (love that word) strategies like camping Oztroja coffers and making it so that my 88k still isn't enough for an Astral? Because....damn. Otherwise I got no problem with it, I've bought gil to fund my RDM until I learned how to make money otherwise.
But yes, NM and coffer camping is evil.
But yes, NM and coffer camping is evil.
Ah, Tiffie, your story reminds me of something... Then it hit me! I am the guy you were referring to! ^_^ I was the one camping Goldbat and I remember all you said at the time.
Heh, small world... :P
Heh, small world... :P
Eleas wrote:
So can we safely say that th eonly problem with gilsellers is their tendency to use asshat (love that word) strategies like camping Oztroja coffers and making it so that my 88k still isn't enough for an Astral? Because....damn. Otherwise I got no problem with it, I've bought gil to fund my RDM until I learned how to make money otherwise.
But yes, NM and coffer camping is evil.
But yes, NM and coffer camping is evil.
psst, 150-180k is the normal going price for an astral when everythings good if i'm correct.
anyway, NM camping is not evil^^ its just a different way of farming gil.
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