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what is so "slow" about 2.5 GCD trolls claim this game has?Follow

#1 Nov 28 2017 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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So it came up in a thread before and I dont get it. I had this to say about it:

"Also what is 2.5 GCD you keep whining about? Are you implying that the game is so slow you have to wait 2.5 secs inbetween attacks? If thats true then why am I firing off a new attack/ability IMMEDIATELY after the animation for the previous one is finished? In letting off attacks back to back, not ONCE have I every stood still idling for 2.5 secs before I could attack again. If THAT were true then youd be right.

But someone who DOESNT suck has so many abilities and attacks to use at high level that before you can use them all the previous attacks cooldowns have already recharged and are ready to be used again. Now when youre at level 1 with only 1-2 attacks then sure it might be slow and that MIGHT be true. but when you're letting off 10 different attacks in a fight there is never a cooldown wait time inbetween attacks. SO I fail to see the slowness you claim to see cause Im ALWAYS attacking from the time a fight starts til the time it ends, never once have I had to wait for something to recharge while I stand there doing nothing. THAT would be slow."


So someone wanna explain what it is and how its "slow" because as you see by what said. Im failing to see whats so "slow" when Im playing
#2 Nov 28 2017 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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A 2.5 second GCD isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things, but it is slow when compared to a game like WoW where the GCD is only 1-1.5 seconds. That extra second or so may not seem like much on paper, but in practice the difference is massive. XIV really does feel incredibly slow in comparison.
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#3 Nov 29 2017 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
A 2.5 second GCD isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things, but it is slow when compared to a game like WoW where the GCD is only 1-1.5 seconds. That extra second or so may not seem like much on paper, but in practice the difference is massive. XIV really does feel incredibly slow in comparison.


Yeah, it's this. This is what they're talking about.

In reality it doesn't matter because you have so many off-GCD abilities that there's always a button you need to be pressing, but initially the game will feel quite slow to someone who's only ever played WoW.
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#4 Nov 29 2017 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
Karlina wrote:
A 2.5 second GCD isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things, but it is slow when compared to a game like WoW where the GCD is only 1-1.5 seconds. That extra second or so may not seem like much on paper, but in practice the difference is massive. XIV really does feel incredibly slow in comparison.


Yeah, it's this. This is what they're talking about.

In reality it doesn't matter because you have so many off-GCD abilities that there's always a button you need to be pressing, but initially the game will feel quite slow to someone who's only ever played WoW.


key word is "initially" who judges a game hats supposed to last you hundreds if not thousands of hours in its first 3 hours? If I did that with ANY mmo or single player RPG then theyd ALL suck lol
#5 Nov 29 2017 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Karlina wrote:
A 2.5 second GCD isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things, but it is slow when compared to a game like WoW where the GCD is only 1-1.5 seconds. That extra second or so may not seem like much on paper, but in practice the difference is massive. XIV really does feel incredibly slow in comparison.


Yeah, it's this. This is what they're talking about.

In reality it doesn't matter because you have so many off-GCD abilities that there's always a button you need to be pressing, but initially the game will feel quite slow to someone who's only ever played WoW.


key word is "initially" who judges a game hats supposed to last you hundreds if not thousands of hours in its first 3 hours? If I did that with ANY mmo or single player RPG then theyd ALL suck lol


You're not wrong but there's a valid point to be made that a game needs to hook you faster than FFXIV actually does. Just because the end of the game feels good doesn't mean a new player with no attachment to it is going to last the dozens of hours it takes to get there.

Let me use FFXIII as an example here. I gave that game about 10 hours to make me like it and it failed miserably. And I heard it from everywhere... "oh the game gets good around the 20 hour mark" ... "you just have to get through the tutorial hallway" ... I gave it 10 hours, I was losing the will to live.

Now an MMO obviously lasts a lot longer than a single player game but it still has to be fun. FFXIV's early game is VERY weak especially if you choose a class like Lancer that literally pushes like 2 buttons for nearly 30 levels of play.
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#6 Nov 29 2017 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Karlina wrote:
A 2.5 second GCD isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things, but it is slow when compared to a game like WoW where the GCD is only 1-1.5 seconds. That extra second or so may not seem like much on paper, but in practice the difference is massive. XIV really does feel incredibly slow in comparison.


Yeah, it's this. This is what they're talking about.

In reality it doesn't matter because you have so many off-GCD abilities that there's always a button you need to be pressing, but initially the game will feel quite slow to someone who's only ever played WoW.


key word is "initially" who judges a game hats supposed to last you hundreds if not thousands of hours in its first 3 hours? If I did that with ANY mmo or single player RPG then theyd ALL suck lol


You're not wrong but there's a valid point to be made that a game needs to hook you faster than FFXIV actually does. Just because the end of the game feels good doesn't mean a new player with no attachment to it is going to last the dozens of hours it takes to get there.

Let me use FFXIII as an example here. I gave that game about 10 hours to make me like it and it failed miserably. And I heard it from everywhere... "oh the game gets good around the 20 hour mark" ... "you just have to get through the tutorial hallway" ... I gave it 10 hours, I was losing the will to live.

Now an MMO obviously lasts a lot longer than a single player game but it still has to be fun. FFXIV's early game is VERY weak especially if you choose a class like Lancer that literally pushes like 2 buttons for nearly 30 levels of play.


Well using FFXIII as an example. Is true that game WAS garbage until Chapter 7... which is after Snow gets Shiva and you crash the Stadium place with them to rescue your compatriots,... Im sure it didnt take 20 hours to get to that point.. or even 10. Sure its not the "open world" area of Gran Pulse that comes at 11. But that also isnt necessarily THE defacto point where the game gets good.. its just simply where it opens up.

As for FFXIV, well if all you care about is grinding (which if you come from WoW then that should be all your focused on as no ones playin THAT game for story, as SE has proven tha theyre the only company capable of making an MMO with a single player like/worthy story.. which is the main draw that makes FFXI and XIV worth playing) then you can easily get to level 50 from 1 in 10 hours, and by that time the "initially" slow phase is gone. Investing 10 hours of your time in an MMO is hardly a lot to ask for
#7 Nov 30 2017 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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I would have to echo what others have said about WoW.

WoW's GCD is actually affected by your Haste. And some classes/quests/buffs are ridiculously awesome when they reduce your GCD to <1 second which just feels awesome. For example, Fury Warrior. If you kill something with Execute, you get a HUGE haste Buff that lets you just straight up rip into the next enemy, unleashing a furious flurry of blows and it feels awesome.

Also, Rogues have a fast GCD to begin with, and it feels nice to be hitting a button every 1 second or so.

Then... you load up FFXIV and you hit a button......wait.......hit a button.........wait....... hit a button........wait.... it just seems..... slow until you get used to it.

And yes, FFXIV seems extremely slow at start, but then you know what? So does WoW. Every class in WoW starts off with 1 and only 1 ability and sometimes you go even further on some classes before you unlock anything else.

That, and in WoW, you one-shot everything so you can't even use your character's full toolkit until Level 70+ unless you purposefully take on a Rare or Elite enemy or go to a Dungeon.

I have a Level 78 Paladin and I am STILL one-shotting enemies with Judgment (without heirlooms!). If I don't one-shot it, it has <10% of its health left and the next ability (or even an auto-attack) will finish it off. That gets boring as heck.

Though, in FFXIV's case, pounding away on an enemy for 10 seconds with 1-2 abilities near the beginning of the game is arguably even more boring.

EDIT: Upon reading my reply, I forgot to mention how big of a factor Kill Speed is, to a game feeling "slow" or "fast". Even at Level 100+ content in WoW, kill speeds are generally faster (unless you play a tank or healer solo, but why would you?). If you are killing stuff and moving onto the next enemy faster, the game will feel faster paced. This is one of the reasons FFXI had always struggled until Adoulin; wailing away at the same enemy for a minute+ feels.... boring and grindy. There are rare and elite enemies in WoW that take awhile to kill, but yet those usually drop really nice rewards if you can kill the thing, and they usually try to reserve it to only boss enemies or enemies that have a special purpose in the game (usually loot or quest bosses). Normal enemies, though, you mow through them and simply have fun doing it.

EDIT2: I would be careful on that story thing, Duo. I just started Legion not that long ago, a week or so ago, and I've already seen vast improvements to the story. More cutscenes, more dialogue, and more coherent story that ties zones together. It isn't FFXIV levels of storytelling, but yet it is markedly better than before. If you haven't touched WoW in a long time, you could be pleasantly surprised at what they've been doing the last couple years. I know, I am surprised (I took a couple year hiatus and recently returned). I initially waved Legion off to be a "meh" thing that was all demons this, demon that... I used to wave off the Legendary Weapon as "you get a legendary, you get a legendary, everybody gets a legendary!" but yet they wove the legendary weapon into a nice quest-line, and it gives you something to progress towards. It was far better designed than I originally thought or gave it credit for.

Edited, Nov 30th 2017 2:04pm by Lyrailis
#8 Dec 15 2017 at 9:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't fault anyone here really. I won't hold it against you if you don't want to 'mash'. I also don't hold it against you if you want to play a more active role in combat. The unfortunate truth however, is that in appeasing the more relaxed player is almost always to have the flow of combat reflect that slower GCD.

The reason why people don't like long GCD is this...

Generally speaking, the abilities that are off of the GCD tend to be either abilities that have limited usage(stuns, slows or snares, interrupts, ect.) or they have much longer cooldowns(minutes or more). As a result, encounters tend to be 'spiky'. You're mashing away to keep up while your buff is active for that 1 minute every 5 minutes, but the other 80% of the time.

Again, I'm not taking a side here. Just pointing out that there are cases to be made for both sides. To me that means that there needs to be a change to the foundation. Personally I would shed the GCD system altogether in favor of a build/spend, priority-based system.

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#9 Dec 16 2017 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
I don't fault anyone here really. I won't hold it against you if you don't want to 'mash'. I also don't hold it against you if you want to play a more active role in combat. The unfortunate truth however, is that in appeasing the more relaxed player is almost always to have the flow of combat reflect that slower GCD.


Slower GCDs are more fun in dungeons/instanced combat so that you have time to think about what you're doing, and also to have time to react to what's going on in the battle. There's longer GCDs in FFXIV vs, say, WoW... but from my experiences it looks like there's a lot more movement and mechanics to deal with from your average boss fight than WoW (at least, the easier difficulties).

I would not want FFXIV-style mechanics and movement with WoW's fast GCDs, lol. That would be a little insane.

Quote:
The reason why people don't like long GCD is this...

Generally speaking, the abilities that are off of the GCD tend to be either abilities that have limited usage(stuns, slows or snares, interrupts, ect.) or they have much longer cooldowns(minutes or more). As a result, encounters tend to be 'spiky'. You're mashing away to keep up while your buff is active for that 1 minute every 5 minutes, but the other 80% of the time.


This is a big part of it too, FFXIV loves its long cooldown abilities. And yeah, they're usually OGCD, but they don't really "matter" in terms of balancing out the length of the GCD because you only use them once every 30-60+ seconds. WoW has pruned a lot of their long cooldowns within the last couple expansions, now most classes have one or two, tops.

Quote:
Again, I'm not taking a side here. Just pointing out that there are cases to be made for both sides. To me that means that there needs to be a change to the foundation. Personally I would shed the GCD system altogether in favor of a build/spend, priority-based system.


This is something WoW has done, with varying success. Holy Power for Paladins feels nice, and they've vastly improved Combo Points for Rogues and Feral Druids over the last couple expansions. They've even added such resources to other classes, such as Shadow Priest, though some of these classes, it seems more like a gimmick than an actual mechanic that you commonly use.

FFXIV is trying to dip their toes into the water too, with things like Oath Power for Paladins. The problem is, the builders and consumers of these resources are too few and don't really weave into a regular rotation. Therefore, most of what you do is still the same old GCD combo abilities that don't care about the Oath Meter whatsoever. Now I'm not saying you should ignore the Oath Meter, as it does have its place, but most of your ability usage is the same old 3-button combos, depending on your needs.

I don't know about ditching GCD altogether, though -- if you ditch it altogether then you're forced into mashing buttons as fast as you can. GCD prevents you from being measured by how fast you can hammer buttons. Now, what I think we COULD do, is base the class around 1-2 resource builders and 2-3 resource spenders and give the builders a cooldown.

Ret Paladin in WoW does this -- your Holy Power builders are Crusader Strike and Blade of Justice. These both have a ~4 second cooldown. Your Holy Power spenders are Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm, and either Word of Glory or that Damage+Heal Attack I can never remember the name of but is insanely overpowered.

You get 1 more ability that does not build Holy Power, nor spend it, but it is a ranged attack, and is your opening attack, and places a debuff on the enemy called Judgment.

You build Holy Power with CS or BoJ, throw Judgment when it is available, and spend your Holy Power as the situation calls for it. The GCD actually matters very little with Ret Paladin; you barely notice it whatsoever. Usually only when you use Judgment, or when you're about to use a Holy Power spender (and just used something else previous to it). It's a very balanced playstyle, and it is one of my favorite.

It toes that line between button-mashing and fall asleep boring, the happy Middle-Man, it's perfectly in-between both. It's easy to just pick up and play, anybody, even a complete newbie could sit in front of a Level 110 Ret Paladin and figure out how to play it with adequate proficiency within five minutes or less, but yet there's room for refinement that takes quite a bit of practice to get to, especially if you take the random extra attack proc talents.

Edited, Dec 16th 2017 10:48am by Lyrailis
#10 Dec 16 2017 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Slower GCDs are more fun in dungeons/instanced combat so that you have time to think about what you're doing, and also to have time to react to what's going on in the battle. There's longer GCDs in FFXIV vs, say, WoW... but from my experiences it looks like there's a lot more movement and mechanics to deal with from your average boss fight than WoW (at least, the easier difficulties)

2.5 second GCD vs .25 second average reaction time...

I'll never accept 'time to think' as an excuse for GCD. There aren't enough variables in the game for you to have to ponder the options longer than a fraction of that time.This is why people are saying that other players 'suck'. Even in a game with as many varied abilities as XIV, you're never presented with problems that force you to decide between more than a few options.

The players who wanted more abilities or who were jilted about the pruning that Blizzard did were more concerned with homogenization than anything else. For the sake of identity, people want their class to have something unique that they bring to the game.

PvP is a whole other beast since you're reacting to somewhat random gameplay, but for nearly all PvE content... you don't actually need any 'time to think'. The choices you make are almost always premeditated and come down to execution.

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#11 Dec 16 2017 at 6:35 PM Rating: Good
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I'd always understood the primary reason for the longer GCD was to accommodate console and controller players who have a more awkward interface when it comes to dealing with more than a handful of buttons.
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#12 Dec 18 2017 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
I'd always understood the primary reason for the longer GCD was to accommodate console and controller players who have a more awkward interface when it comes to dealing with more than a handful of buttons.


They said this before, but it's a similar line of thinking that:

"Having visible belts hinders our ability to create good looking armor sets as well as many varied, unique armor sets."

and

"If we sync animations with damage the servers will crash"

and

"We have to create a copy of all your character data when you enter and leave an instanced battle/content."

All of this was said during the mid Beta days of 2.0, so it's more of an excuse to bandaid fix their broken system they outsourced to China and now have to deal with. For example some of the top players (currently) are controller users who if you've ever watched their streams, swaps between K/M and Gamepad just to switch things up, but the GCD is largely because they just mimicked early age WoW because that was the entire purpose of 2.0 after they decided not to go with designs of their other MMOs (XI/FMO/DQX) and more meet the "bare minimum standard" which was 2004-2005 era WoW kinda like we only have flight and swimming because they're running down a checklist of "what's in a standard MMO these days?" as they serve almost no purpose at all to gameplay.

So while this version of XIV is "faster", battle systems evolved well beyond that early 2000s era of "fast" gameplay. I still much prefer XI and PSO2 style combat (especially Hero class combat) than XIV's since honestly, this game is far too scripted that dropping the GCD (or making it quicker) would make things a lot more interesting in content where it really matters, because for the most part, Dungeons, current Ex primals and Savage 1-3 of Omega, it doesn;'t matter that it's 2.5, but in content like Omega 4 and Unending Coil? That's when more "skill based" gameplay would shine in this game.

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#13 Dec 18 2017 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They said this before, but it's a similar line of thinking that:

"Having visible belts hinders our ability to create good looking armor sets as well as many varied, unique armor sets."

and

"If we sync animations with damage the servers will crash"

and

"We have to create a copy of all your character data when you enter and leave an instanced battle/content."


This is a great point, SE says a lot of things. You probably should've stopped here though because the rest of your post reads like a rant.

For more fuel on the SE says a lot of thing fire...

SE says they don't want you sending mail to alts because it'll deter RMT.
SE says you have to subscribe to more bank space because the bandwidth usage is too high otherwise.
SE says they can't make more housing because of server restrictions

These are all failures of design not technological impossibilities. They're obstacles SE created for themselves and then proceeded to hide behind when someone noticed.

The GCD thing... eh. I'm not convinced that's a design failure really. It's a design choice for sure, but failure? That's not really apparent here. Maybe it is and there's some kind of in-engine reason why the GCD needs to be that long... I doubt it since most of the melee dps classes have the built-in function of making it shorter, so I don't really know. The controller thing was something I'd heard a long time ago. But not being a controller player myself I never really thought about it any further than that.
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#14 Dec 18 2017 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Not really a rant, just a lot of design choices they made (at least with 2.0 in mind eventually) just seemed like trying to be more of a "let's check this off to meet a kind of outdated standard" rather than actually taking the game design in mind to try to be more interesting you know? So wasn't saying like it's impossible (because they're still doing things with XI and that game was designed in the late 90s lol) just they really...don't want to go beyond the bare minimum or have some excuse to prevent them from doing more.

Yeah as said, the controller thing was said during the beta phases, which is where they said a lot of things in regards to their design choices for this game, but who knows honestly. The game really only puts "all" of your skills to use in content like Unending Coil because it actually demands more of the player, which goes beyond the current limitations (e.g you need to know how to clip GCD properly without overlapping too much and how to "trick" some of the timers) a lot of "techniques" that really shouldn't be a thing if they didn't design everything around a strict script and (long) GCD.

It's like how they said we'd never get inventory increases, but now they're gating it behind weird restrictions. (Need expansion registered/need a chocobo buddy etc.)
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#15 Dec 18 2017 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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It's like how they said we'd never get inventory increases, but now they're gating it behind weird restrictions. (Need expansion registered/need a chocobo buddy etc.)


To be fair here, the FFXI team said that too and then they found a way to make it work anyway within their limitations... also it's another game that makes you subscribe to storage space (wardrobes 3 & 4) for really no reason at all... SE has a thing for that I guess. I don't begrudge a developer the right to say something isn't possible one day and then contradict themselves when they figure out a way to make it possible. In the end I'd rather just have the thing.
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#16 Dec 18 2017 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
Slower GCDs are more fun in dungeons/instanced combat so that you have time to think about what you're doing, and also to have time to react to what's going on in the battle. There's longer GCDs in FFXIV vs, say, WoW... but from my experiences it looks like there's a lot more movement and mechanics to deal with from your average boss fight than WoW (at least, the easier difficulties)

2.5 second GCD vs .25 second average reaction time...

I'll never accept 'time to think' as an excuse for GCD. There aren't enough variables in the game for you to have to ponder the options longer than a fraction of that time.This is why people are saying that other players 'suck'. Even in a game with as many varied abilities as XIV, you're never presented with problems that force you to decide between more than a few options.

The players who wanted more abilities or who were jilted about the pruning that Blizzard did were more concerned with homogenization than anything else. For the sake of identity, people want their class to have something unique that they bring to the game.

PvP is a whole other beast since you're reacting to somewhat random gameplay, but for nearly all PvE content... you don't actually need any 'time to think'. The choices you make are almost always premeditated and come down to execution.



There's more to "Time to Think" than "which ability should I use next?"

The longer GCD gives you more time to focus on your surroundings, allows you to respond to movement and mechanics faster, gives you more time to glance at your group health meters, etc. If you're constantly pounding keys every .25 seconds, you're not having much time to keep an eye on your environment, health meters, any messages that pop up on the screen, pay attention to audio cues, etc.

Not everybody can multitask 10-15 things at once.

Yes, I know, the horror... not everybody is awesome. Most people are simply "average". Why do you think people started making mods for WoW that told you exactly what to do when during a boss fight? Then Blizzard had to respond by making boss fights even harder to compensate, even more complex just to keep fights challenging when everybody that had a bot that screamed "DO THIS!" "DO THAT!".

We don't have that bot in FFXIV, though... we only get audio cues and markers on the ground that you need to see during the action.
#17 Dec 18 2017 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you're constantly pounding keys every .25 seconds, you're not having much time to keep an eye on your environment, health meters, any messages that pop up on the screen, pay attention to audio cues, etc.


Been doing that in WoW for years. You don't really need all that extra time to think unless you have the mental reflexes of a butternut squash.

Quote:
Not everybody can multitask 10-15 things at once.


"Top priority button to mash" -> "Execute current mechanic"

Two things.

EDIT: Submitted this too early in a vain attempt to escape the perpetually-loading Zam ads.

You alluded to DBM at the end of your post trivializing fights. And it did when the only fight mechanics were "dodge this" or "stack up" and the fights got more complex after DBM became really widespread. I'd argue that's a GOOD thing. The early WoW fights were stupid. The later fights had a lot of moving parts to deal with and were far more interesting as a result. Yor'sahj hitting you with 4 mechanics at once and your group has to decide which one to cancel and handle 3 of them simultaneously... that's cool. Big Bug Thing in Heart of Fear (whos name escapes me right now) having to damage his legs to hurt him and constantly being on the move so he doesn't just squash you... that's good stuff right there.

Also you might be surprised how many people are incapable of following DBM's instructions when it DOES tell you what you need to be doing. You still have to DO it and that's not always easy.

Edited, Dec 18th 2017 9:58pm by Callinon
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#18 Dec 19 2017 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
The longer GCD gives you more time to focus on your surroundings, allows you to respond to movement and mechanics faster, gives you more time to glance at your group health meters, etc. If you're constantly pounding keys every .25 seconds, you're not having much time to keep an eye on your environment, health meters, any messages that pop up on the screen, pay attention to audio cues, etc.


GCD doesn't matter. How many boss abilities last 2.5 seconds between when you get the visual/audio cue and when the damage happens? This is also the reason why all of your proactive/reactive abilities are OFF of the GCD. All a GCD does is limits the pace at which you fire off any of the other abilities that are not dealing with [insert situation here].

If you are ever doing progression where the content requires near perfect execution, you quickly realize that the best strategies cut out the moments you would otherwise need 'time to think'. It may very well be the case that any of 15 things could happen. It's also the case that your strategy negates the need to consider most of them.
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cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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