Possibility of creating an up-to-date Puppetmaster guideFollow

Interested in seeing, and I'll do my part, I'll gather up all my spreadsheets and data, and shoot it over to you via email, or this?

And I won't doubt, that some other long timers, would love to assist with info and data.

Hell maybe we could even convince Jinte to pull a couple things in, given if she has the time.

Edited, Apr 13th 2012 6:24am by Camwin

Very nice to see someone carrying the torch forward for the PUPs. Hopefully this ends well, as it would be nice to have a place to send some of the newer PUPs instead of having to explain over and over some of the more tedious things associated with the job.

Huge stamp of approval, I'll attempt to be as much help as I can be given my busy schedule as of late.

A wish of good luck in this endeavor as well. As I know for sure that you'll have quite a bit of work ahead of you working on this guide, even with help.

Dude, suicide is not the answer to bullying, because metaphorically thats what your post reminds me of, o.O

Pup is fun, who gives a (insert preferred curse word) what the heck other people think about your job, you either have fun playing it, or you dont, and screw everyone else to the curb.

I used to let people push me around when i was younger, but then i learned to ignore their ignorance and just have faith in myself, and since i made that decision my life has become a million times better/happier.

just my 2 cents

Fantus

I saw the thread and posted in it. As a PUP main, I understand that many people don't understand the job, but also realize the information can be hard to find. That's one of the purposes of this guide: to inform non-PUPs in an easy, all-in-one resource.

That said, there will always be people who think PUP is an awful job out of ignorance. I had an argument the other night with someone who refused to accept PUP is one of the most evasive jobs in the game thanks to Evasion Bonus IV, despite all the wiki links and hard data I had proving it. Jobs snobs gonna job snob, and they'll always exist. It's their loss though: there are many times I've asked for invites to PJ shouts only to be denied. Usually when that happens, I'll make my own group or solo the task in question, then return to Jeuno to see them still shouting.

I said it in =10, will say it here too


STFU ZELDUH!!!


I'm pretty sure Jinte was a PUP from the word jump and his contributions to the PUP community in general over the years alone lend more credence to what he says on the subject imo than most anyone besides Anza. That said, i'll be speaking for me hereafter in this post, 'cause frankly he doesn't need anyone taking up for him. This isn't hero worship or anything, its simple fact.

I have been a PUP main since about 3 months after ToAU and the job were released. I was one of the chief naysayers of PUP in my LS at the time actually. Was taking BLU through the jungles at the time when i had the great fortune of getting in a pt with a PUP. After i saw him plowing through mobs, i was sold and have been on-board with the job ever since.

I've quit LS's, i've black-listed stalkers bombarding me with derision, and have even lost ingame friends over being a PUP. Who the @#%^ are you to waltz in here and call anyone that truly cares about this job a bandwagonner or part of a 'circle-jerk' clique because we see your recent behavior as both disruptive and juvenile? Please...

Me, i don't hate you. Personally, i just deeply dislike you and players like you. You and your ilk find and latch onto a job for all the wrong reasons and then proceed to make asses of yourselves, and by extension the jobs you infest, talking your big talk and failing to back any of it up in any way other than the old 'NO U!!!!11!LAWL!!!' defense. I've seen it many times before and it sickens me whenever your type pop up.

X job is looked down on by the FFXI populace. Ppl like you Zelduh, then latch on to it not to boost the job or make it better. No, you grab a hold in a delusional powerplay against naysayers to prove you are somehow made of pure awesome because you alone can play X job correctly. You alone can show everyone the trick to X job. And then you all start foaming about the mouth shouting down any who oppose your views. Even legitimate lovers of X job. BST, MNK, DRG, etc, etc, and now PUP.; any job that's been consistently mocked or put down ingame eventually pulls you vermin in sadly.

All that said you play a job like PUP because you love it. Or you want to understand it. You don't play it to elevate yourself and lord your imaginary superiority over everyone else like you were King Friday looking down at all the lesser puppets.

You aren't the first Zelduh and won't be the last to graze your drama-llama in FFXI. But you do have the distinction of being one of the few to ever really piss me off. Even Natey had info backing him up when he showed his ass in here. You come with nothing, you don't hold a candle to that guy.

You want ppl to take you seriously? Then calm the @#%^ down and think before you post. That thread in =10 is a travesty, thanks in large part to you stupidly spouting off at the mouth. In fact it reminds me of that Voidwatch thread you shat all about in as well. Its all well and good to feel strongly about PUP(or anything really), i sure do; but its another thing entirely doing what you are doing.

How the hell do you think it is gonna help PUP by antagonizing ppl already dead-set against giving the job a chance? Its not. What it will do is have a trickle down effect that just negatively reinforces the job's already less than stellar rep.I'll expond on this.

The guy Raelix you were carrying on with in =10, i happen to be in one of his shells on my server. Now i don't think he's active atm, but from what i've seen of him in it, he's pretty well thought of and his opinion of something isn't just dismissed. Say he resubs and comes back spitting fire about some dumbass PUP online? I can tell you that that group of jokes will take what he say to heart. Then they will pass the sentiment to others, them to others, etc.....

Anyways, i've calmed down a bit typing this out. Will end saying, stop being a dummy Zelduh. And stop thinking you are the end-all-be-all personification of PUP, because you sure as hell ain't.

Zelduh, I can tell you enjoy PUP, but that is no reason to devalue and flame two PUPs, who both have more than contributed to the forums and the well being of would be PUPs. Hell not to idolize Jinte, but without Jinte I wouldn't be the PUP I am today. And Spirit, isn't much different.

I insist upon you that you quit bashing on your end. And I quote you "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

This ouroboros of trollbaiting > feeding the trolls is not what this thread is for. Stop it.

As for the guide, I've created a rough outline (I realize it doesn't use proper formatting for an outline, but after college I never want to see the letters M, L, and A next to each other ever again). This is mainly to expand on the concepts mentioned in the OP and establish a basic flow for the guide and how information will be integrated into each section. Once the content of the guide is decided upon, I'm going to write it section by section and will use this thread to ask the more experienced/knowledgable PUPs here questions I don't know how to answer or for clarifications on wiki information that seems vague.

My fellow PUPs, please give feedback if it seems like I've left anything out or if you feel the guide should be organized/ordered differently.

Outline:

1. UNDERSTAND! UNDERSTAND! The concept of PUP - Explain PUP's roles as it's a hybrid job. Include general roles (DD, healer, etc) as well as end game roles (what PUPs are meant to do in VW, Abyssea, Dynamis, etc). Explain its strengths and limitations of said roles, and what a party can reasonably expect of a good pup (performance wise [is the DD pup using Stringing Pummel/Victory Smite, or at least Shijin Spiral?] and specific tasks, e.g., don't expect a PUP to main heal an alliance because they literally can't). Clarify misconceptions about PUP. Perhaps make this section into its own thread separate from the main guide so more non-PUPs will be inclined to read it?

2. Job overview - Basic functions of the job. List of stats (and which to focus on) as well as Job Traits and Job Abilites, how instructing the puppet via maneuvers works, light overview of how attachments are equipped/activated, differences between frames and their uses/limitations, which subs are used for what.

3. Becoming a PUP - How to unlock the job, how to acquire all frames, how to acquire basic AF gear, general leveling route to level 99. Maybe put some basic tips on gear here (what to wear until 99, or like how Pink set > Alcide's > AF3+1 is a decent way to start until you get better stuff [assuming you don't already have anything better]).

4. In-depth explanation of attachments and frames - hard data of what each attachment does at 1, 2, or 3 corresponding maneuvers, their uses, which attachments are good to equip for general uses and which ones are good at specific situations. Hard data for frames goes here (skills caps at 99, for example). Discuss frame/head combos. Explain how triggers work and what they are for each attachment, including WS triggers.

5. Playing the job - Useful macros, how to use merits JAs, maneuver combinations. How to solo: which sub and frame to use, which types of mobs can and can't be soloed. Explain how to plow through old content (like Missions). Briefly cover how PUP functions in a traditional party (for inclusiveness and the rare instances that actually happens).

6. PUP in Abyssea - How to get 3 lunar abyssites/how to handle zone bosses, which atmas PUP should strive to obtain, which atmas are good for what and how to balance your selection of subs, frames, attachments, gear, and atmas for a given task, which procs are available to PUP and its subs, PUP's uses in general Abyssea stuff like seal/+2 mat farming, which seals/+2 mat NMs PUP can solo farm (also, which popsets PUP can solo farm).

7. PUP in other end game activities - PUP's usage in all non-Abyssea activities, with subsections featuring VW, Dynamis, Legion, Nyzul Isle, Einherjar, Salvage, BCNMs, and WoE. Definitely will need help with this part as I haven't done some of the older end game events, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

8. Recommended gear - How to acquire AF3+1/+2 sets, how to acquire Relic sets, specific pieces that are good and how to acquire them (Brutal Earring, for example). Discuss TP, haste, pet haste, eva, and healing pieces/sets. Which pieces are good for gearswap macros (STR [or DEX for Shijin Spiral] for WS macros, Bufoon's Collar for maneuvers, etc). Which stats to look for when selecting gear. Which Magian Trial weapons are worth obtaining.

9. Useful tricks/lesser known stuff - Explain fast ways to claim a mob (mainly via subs), how enmity dumping works, how to force deaggro, oddball (mismatched) head/frame combos, hate-free nuking. If anyone can think of other secret techniques of the PUP trade, please mention it for inclusion.

10. Links to good PUP threads - Self-explanatory, will compile this list when the rest of the guide is complete.

Everything I say is funny when I want it to be, to people who enough of a have a sense of humor realize when I'm trying to be funny. I'm almost never serious when I'm raging. That doesn't change the fact that you're an idiot, though. Like that one pup from the Official forums who tried to argue that Atma of the Sea Daughter was a great DD atma because of the regain, and because the 13% slow wasn't a major issue.

BUT! I agree with spirit and I'm going to second the apology. That was why I said I didn't want too rip into Zelduh; this isn't the place for it.

I'm also going to second what spirit said about that addition to your list, and emphasize it, that sh*t needs to be big, bold, and blatantly obvious, and also both well written enough to not be preachy, but simple enough to not confuse people. I can probably write it up for you, if you don't think you can pull it off. If you do, then please do, because I'd love to see another well spoken pup take charge in the community, there are a lot of us


No one except for HS and College english teachers gives a @#%^ about MLA. But yea, this is the same sort of outline style I use, so let me see if I can give you any tips. I am also going to second spirit's comment about how individualistic the job gets, and how tricky it is to write a guide for (I'm speaking from experience here, the guide sticky I wrote took me three months to do to a point where I was at least somewhat happy with it, and another month or two before I stopped nitpicking at it after I posted it ). I definitely think you should adjust the ordering, a bit, though, but I'll go into that more after I get through the individual points.


Definitely a good starter and a very important one, you could probably roll the whole "Dealing with non-pups" in to this, or even simply write the entire section as a KISS version of the pup job for people who don't play it, regardless of their interest in the job. This is one of the sections you'll want to flesh out; because of how variable and versatile pup can be, and the nature of what this section is, you need to go with the "detail heavy" route for it, as opposed to the "keep it vague" route, or this section won't really be useful at all. That said, while you want this section to be detailed, the stuff covered by it should be individually kept vague, or this section will basically become the guide itself, which happened to me and was a major headache to fix. Really though, you might find that you've got a bit too much packed into this section, honestly, so you might be better off using this as a preview for what all can be found within your guide, and not expand on anything beyond simply where to find more info about something. I think I pulled a 180 mid-paragraph on what I'm thinking, here, so let me know if what I just said makes any sense or contradicts itself


Basically, "Generic pup stats/traits/abilities, and explanations of what they are/do" combined with a basic version of "What pup needs in order to do what it can do" right? Sounds pretty straight forward, just make sure you get your facts straight and triple check for typos and what not.


Seems pretty straight forward here, too, only comment I have is on the gear bit, which I would say really only needs "aim for melee gear while you're leveling, you probably won't need anything else until after you've hit endgame" since even when you need specialized gear for low level sh*t, these days, the only people that do said things (read: capped bcnms) are people who are already at endgame anyway. Probably want to include a basic rundown of what to aim for melee wise for newer players, too.
1-30: Atk > Acc > Str > Dex (Atk is really valuable pre-30, those mighty rings with the +5atk enchant? A pair of them adds more to your damage prior to snipers/woodsman levels than any food you could eat)
30-60: Acc > Atk > Str > Dex (Acc becomes more valuable and atk becomes less valuable, Str is always more valuable than dex, because fSTR is far easier increase and far more important over all, than dDEX, at least until you can get the stupid amounts of dex necessary to make dDEX hit it's stride)
60-90ish: Haste > Acc > Atk > Str > Dex
Endgame Pup melee: Haste > MA/DA/TA/Crit/Atk/Acc/Str (which is worth more or less than which is very situational, and I haven't mathed it out recently for generic pup consideration. I'll do that after I post this, I think) > Acc/Store TP/Str/Dex (Acc loses a lot of its value once you cap your skill, except in situations where you need a lot of it, and Str gains a lot of sway simply due to the nature of acc becoming less important, which is why they're listed twice. Store TP just isn't worth as much for 1H/H2H users as it is for 2H users, and we also don't have nearly enough access to it for it to be considered as important as DA/TA/Crit/Atk.) > Conserve TP/Save TP/KA (Conserve TP is lol, Save TP got nerfed, and we don't have the ability to make kick attacks work and be viable enough for them to be relevant, since with the exception of 1-2 pieces, none of the KA gear we can wear is worth wearing because it sacrifices too much in other areas.)

Actually, I think it might be better if I just math that sh*t all out for you (and everyone else) to use as a reference


You don't need to go too indepth, honestly. What's more important is explaining the details on the ones that aren't self-explanitory, which attachments are worth using, and which ones aren't. Ie: You don't need to explain what Tension Spring or Stabilizer do, beyond maybe giving their stats, but honestly, you're better off just linking to the wiki and explaining that attachments like those are straight foreward and need no further explanation on your part. For attachments like Inhibitor, you'll probably want to explain the basics of what they do aside from the obvious (read: you don't need to explain inhibitor's store TP, just its SCing function), but you should also mention if or when they are or are not actually worth using, ie: at lower levels, inhibitor makes Self-SCs easier, and ups your damage, but at higher levels, it usually just slows your damage down and isn't worth using. The only attachments you'll really need to explain in much detail are the really important ones (Turbo Charger, Vivi-valve, etc), and the really complicated ones (Ice Maker, Damage Gauge, Optic Fiber (this one's a @#%^ing pain to explain clearly), etc) and also why they're important. For the complicated ones that don't do anything important, you can probably give a basic explanation and explain that "They're complicated but mostly useless." By this I mean tactical processor, which has an incredibly complicated function that makes almost no visible difference in anything at all ever, except maybe, and I heavily emphasize maybe based on preliminary testing I've done, that it might possibly increase ws frequency slightly (basic testing had my puppet wsing on average between 140-160 TP without it, and 120-140 with it, but the sample size was pretty minuscule because I was testing something else and just through it in for sh*ts and giggles on the side. I need to get back on that at some point.)

Don't need much depth with the frame/head combos, since there are only 2 aside from matching that are actually worth using in some situations; Valorwaker before you get your hands on soulsoother, and occasionally before cure VI, and Drklequin (Spiritreaver/harlequin) which can put out some moderate/decent dd and has more survivability than sharpshot. Triggers, though, you should definitely be clear and detailed about.



Combine those two. I know I said I was going to cover the order later, but yea, combine those two into one section. This section also needs to be both vague and detailed at the same time, though, since in addition to what you've got, it should basically cover what pup's over all capabilities are, the various roles it can fill, and how it fills them.




Don't really need to comment on either of these yet. I can be more constructive/helpful after you've got them fleshed out.


Be really, really, really careful when you make this, because it's really @#%^ing difficult to do both a gear guide and a gearing guide at the same time, and not sound incredibly biased towards certain things (I triied, my gear guide initially had comments on why gear was included, but I realized towards the end that they all had a pretty heavy hand towards my personal pup playstyle, so I had to go back and revise the entire thing.) It also takes @#%^ing forever and is really goddamn tedious to make it not look terrible, visually. Might suggest either separating them, or simplifying it to a pure Gearing guide. (Note: Gear vs Gearing: Gear = gear, Gearing = why you wear what you wear)


Have fun with that. I've tried to overhaul my links thread, but @#%^, it's a major hassle

Anyway, the over all order, I think I want to see your more fleshed out versions of the various sections before I really comment too much on it, because this order is mostly workable (with the one big issue I had already noted) depending on how you go about it.

Also, sorry if I came off a bit preachy/demanding with my advice, basically just trying to give you a fair warning that there's a lot more work necessary to making a job guide, especially a pup guide, than you might realize. If you have the patience/dedication to see it through to the end, you'll definitely leave it a much better player, though, so it's worth the effort. You'll never want to ever do it again though. You're totally welcome ask me for advice on clarifying sh*t that needs to be clarified, though. Same on the math stuff. If there's anything you want to borrow/use from the stickies, help yourself. Honestly, you can feel free to blatantly plagiarize if you think something is still relevant and well written enough to be viable. That sh*ts all sorts of out of date, though, so I doubt much of it aside from common sense stuff is.

One really useful portion of this area would be "how do I make the mage puppet work??" Understanding how to "pull the strings" and manipulate the mage frames' AI to do what you want it to do is complicated and unique to the job. In my view, once a player learns this they can really "get" the automaton part of the job. Understanding how to force certain spells (e.g. silence on a mage mob), how to avoid certain spells (no thx Aspir-Drain), loading up on ice maneuvers to nuke, having the puppet cast then quickly DAD to get a second spell right away - these are the things that separate the pros from the people who don't fully get it.

How to gear the master is fairly similar to any other 1H/H2H DD. Using VE is easy. Using SS is easy provided you clearly note that it should almost always be played like a 2004-era RNG (melee for more TP = more WS). Using Spiritreaver and actually getting it to nuke when you want it, heal when you want it, use the right enfeebles... that's an art.



Good comments. One way to do it would be to give some general gearing concepts at the start, then just do a pure list and let the players use it as a resource. Maybe highlight the standard expected pieces or undisputed must-haves in bold or something (Cirque+2 pieces, Brutal Earring, AF/AF+1 gloves, these kinds of things).

In the stickied older guide, I like Jinte's way of using color-coded symbols to show which types of roles each piece of gear fills.


Not to derail the productive discussion, but I just saw this today and I can't let it pass without saying I got a huuuuuuuge laugh out of that being said to JINTE of all people. One way to ensure your credibility goes from low to absolute zero is to say something like that to one of the all time most helpful people in the English-speaking PUP community.

All-time classic PUP forum ridiculousness, and that's really saying something with some of the stuff we've seen here over the years.

Edited, Apr 26th 2012 3:09pm by Anza

So is this guide now somewhere for people to read?

That's actually a huge shame, I hope someone takes up on this at some point.

Or does someone know where a PUP now 99 could get some help for the new gear, roles, AI changes, new attachments etc.? I loved my PUP @ 75 but I seem a bit lost now and dont know where to start.

Edited, May 4th 2012 5:05am by LeilaniWildfire

Slow my tookus! I check this forum at least 6 times a day.

And yes I have a life, but I also have a smartphone and often get bored enough to check. Because I love pup and the official forum is a joke.

No worries Pelamir. Real life must take precedence always. You've taken on quite the challenge, work it at your own pace.

Update on the guide:

Life has settled down for the moment, so fortunately I've had a lot more time to work on it lately. At this point, the current plan is as follows:
1. Finish typing the guide in its entirety (as in fill out all chapters).
2. Proofread and make corrections or changes where necessary (typos/grammatical errors, swap stuff around or add/remove info if needed)
3. After these two initial steps, I'll post the rough draft onto the Test Server... er, Pastebin and share the link in this thread. I HIGHLY encourage my fellow PUPs to read the guide once it's posted, and please post ANY feedback on it in this thread, whether that ends up being correcting wrong information, making arguments for opinions or ideas not expressed in the guide, suggesting additions or clarifications, small stuff like pointing out missed typos, just saying "Kudos, you explained *insert-whatever-here* perfectly," or anything else that needs mentioning. I make no claims to be the best PUP around or even anywhere near the level of Jinte, Spiritreaver, or any of the other more knowledgeable PUPs on this or any other forum. By pointing out what's wrong AND what's right with the guide, it will help ensure the final product is of the highest quality, which is what I aim to achieve. All I ask is that negative criticism is polite instead of being a jerk, and that you source your information when possible (obviously things like general community consensus regarding opinions are impossible to source, but if it was, say, something that BG tested, please link to BG's data).
4. I will make changes to the guide in correspondence with the feedback given.
5. Repeat 3-4 until the guide is generally agreed on.
6. I'll make a new thread for it and post it in its entirety on this forum.

One last thing: I realize the guide is taking a long time, and I'm well aware that people are anticipating its release. To those patiently waiting, again, I apologize for the wait, and look forward to releasing the best guide I can make for you. However, to those impatiently waiting, rudeness will not spur me to finish it faster, nor will anything else, as I'm doing this 100% voluntarily in what little free time I can spare. The release date on the guide is, to borrow a line from id Software, "When it's done," and if that annoys you, {That's too bad.} I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but I would never ask anyone to prioritize any video game over their real life. All I ask is for that same courtesy.

Thanks again everyone for your patience and enthusiasm. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some typing to do.

Edited, Jun 14th 2012 12:06am by Pelamir

I would like to ask something, which may also be nice for guide.

Frame's + WS's; different maneuvers trigger different weaponskills.

Most speak for itself (valoredge frame =dark=cannibal blade etc) though i found that some maneuvers take priority over others. For instance fire+dark=cannibal, fire+fire+dark=chimera ripper. or Light + Dark does Bonecrusher i believe. Posting quick at work so forgive spelling errors in ws names.

Use this mostly when soloing pup in Dynamis. When u have no bst, pup/thf is ok option in dynamis. Rarely competition on WS trigger mobs, and all attachments, flash/voke/dispel/ws's trigger mobs. When a proc not happening doing a different weaponskill then already tried seemed to help for me.

So idk if anyone has such a list or if it would be possible to include in guide. But this is one of the things that still as a long time pup, can get to me sometimes.... how the @#$@# do i get string shredder with fire/dark/light or any other maneuver up for that matter. wind wind + 3rd random?

/bow

manuever + highest skill + tie, are what i need to keep eye on.

/facepalm so logical, and why i never bothered to look there -.-

thx

Right now ffxiclopedia is the most up to date on automaton related pages (mostly because I'm the only one updating them). Unfortunately due to an unplanned hiatus from the game right before the big AI update, I never got around to updating all the new AI stuff on each of the head pages. Soulsoother is done and after some quick testing, recast timers have been updated on the other head pages. Also the spell list is up to date on all the pages. I'll eventually get around to updating the AI sections for the other heads but for now there's just a disclaimer that the info is old.

If ffxiclopeda is not your favourite wiki please merge its pages with BG's or GE's (make sure any unique info is not lost on the destination wiki).

Edited, Sep 22nd 2012 6:16pm by Zijder